Discovery Conversation 05: Susan

Date: March 21, 2026 Context: Former colleague and friend. Retired developer. Coming over for laptop help at noon. Referral source (she connected you to the Luisa/NDA web dev client through her friend Andrew). Paying in pizza. Agreed to give a testimonial. Format: In-person, casual, after the laptop help is done Target length: 15-20 minutes

Warm Up (2 min)

You just spent time fixing her laptop so the vibe should already be relaxed. Transition naturally from the tech help into the conversation.

So now that we got your laptop sorted out, how are things going? What are you getting into these days?

Let her talk. Catch up. This is a friend, not a subject. The goal is just to shift gears from tech support mode to conversation mode.

Improv'd Question: Tell me about when we work together at Palm Beach State.

The Experience (3 min)

You just delivered a service to her in real time. Mine it.

Before you brought the laptop to me, what were you going to do about it? Like were you going to take it somewhere, google it, ask someone else?

You want to know what the alternative was. This tells you what you're competing against even in informal contexts.
When I was working on it, did you feel like you understood what was going on? Or was it more like "I trust you, just fix it"?

This maps directly to how your paying clients experience you. The "working engineer in your corner" positioning only works if people feel included, not talked at. Susan's answer tells you whether your instinct is to explain or just do.

How She Sees You (4 min)

You sent your friend Andrew's contact my way for that web project. What made you think of me for that?

This is referral psychology. You want to hear how she frames what you do when you're not in the room. Whatever she says is closer to your real brand than anything on your website.
If someone you know, like a friend's kid or a neighbor, said they were a software engineer and felt stuck in their career, would you think of me? What would you tell them?

The golden question adapted for a referral source. You're not asking "what do I do," you're asking "what would you say I do." Big difference.
When you think about what I'm good at, what comes to mind first? The technical stuff, the people stuff, or something else?

Let her answer without steering. If she says "people stuff" first, that's a signal about what sticks with people who've worked alongside you.

Pricing and Value (3 min)

She's not your target buyer but she understands technical work and what it's worth. Frame these as hypothetical.

So my services right now are $325 an hour for engineers who want to work through career or technical problems with someone who's been there. Just gut reaction, does that number feel right to you for what I bring to the table?

You're not asking if she'd pay it. You're asking if the number matches her perception of your value. That's a different question and a valid one from anyone who knows your work.
If you were still working and you hit a wall on something, infrastructure stuff, career stuff, dealing with a difficult team, would you have paid for an hour with someone like me? What would that have been worth to you back then?

Retired people have the benefit of hindsight. She might say something like "I would have paid double if it saved me six months of spinning my wheels." That's testimonial-grade material.

Referral Mapping (3 min)

Besides the Andrew situation, do you know anyone else right now who's working in tech and seems frustrated or stuck? Not asking you to sell me, just curious if you hear that kind of thing in your circle.

Low pressure. You're asking her to scan her mental rolodex, not make a pitch for you.
What about on the business side? Anyone you know who runs a small company or a team that's trying to figure out AI tools or cloud stuff and doesn't know where to start?

This maps to your B2B offering. Retired people know other retired people but they also know people who are still running things.

Testimonial (2 min)

Hey, so you mentioned a while back you'd be willing to write me a testimonial. I actually put together a couple of drafts you can look at. You can pick one and change whatever you want so it sounds like you, or write your own, totally up to you. No rush on it either.

Hand her the drafts (see below). Don't hover. Let her read them on her own time. The goal is to remove the "staring at a blank page" barrier.

Close (1 min)

Anything you think I should be doing differently? Or something you think I'm missing? You've known me a long time so I trust your read on this.

End with an open door. Friends will tell you things clients won't.

Testimonial Drafts for Susan

Give her both and let her pick, edit, or rewrite.

Option A (the "I've seen her work" angle):

"I worked alongside O.J. for years and watched her solve problems that stumped entire teams. She has this rare combination of deep technical skill and the patience to actually explain what she's doing and why. When I needed help with my own tech issue, she was the only person I wanted to call. If you're an engineer trying to level up, you're in good hands."

Option B (the "trust and referral" angle):

"O.J. is the person I send people to when they need real help, not generic advice. She knows infrastructure and software engineering inside and out, and she treats every person like their problem matters. I've known her for years and her standard hasn't dropped once."

Notes for yourself

Do the laptop help first. Earn the pizza. Then transition into the conversation naturally.
Don't rush the interview part. If the laptop fix takes a while, shorten the conversation rather than cramming it.
She's a referral source, not a customer. The most valuable thing she can give you (besides the testimonial) is language. How she describes you to other people IS your marketing.
Listen for names. If she mentions anyone by name who's working in tech, write it down.
The Luisa referral came through her. That's proof she already thinks of you when opportunities come up. The question is whether she'd think of you for career/engineering stuff too, not just "someone who can build a website."
Don't forget to actually give her the testimonial drafts. Print them or text them to her so she has them after she leaves.
This is interview #5 of 25. You need about 3-4 per week from here to hit quota in 5-6 weeks.

Conversation Analysis

Overview

The conversation was conducted in-person on March 21, 2026, during and after a laptop migration session (old laptop to new). The interview covered all 12 planned questions across two recording segments (the laptop went to sleep mid-conversation, requiring a pause and resume). Susan was relaxed and candid throughout, and the testimonial was finalized on the spot by combining both drafted options. Total conversation time appears to be approximately 20-25 minutes of recorded interview plus the laptop work itself.

Key Signals

How Susan describes what O.J. does (the golden question):

When asked how she'd describe O.J. to someone stuck in their career, Susan framed it as: "I have this friend who has a business of helping people in their current position job wise, how the market is, the current market and how they can help them market themselves to the current environment and what are some of the tricks to get noticed by employers." This is a job search and career positioning framing, not a technical mentoring framing. It suggests that from a referral source's perspective, the career strategy angle is what sticks and what she'd lead with when talking to someone in her network.

The 50/50 signal:

When asked whether tech stuff or people stuff comes to mind first, Susan said they're equal and inseparable: "You know your technical stuff very well, but you're also very easy to talk to and very personable. They're kind of equal, 50-50." This is consistent with Kirk's "she's not some consultant, she's your team member" and Ethan's "truth over feelings" feedback. The pattern across all discovery conversations is that people can't separate the technical skill from the interpersonal delivery. They experience them as one thing.

Referral behavior is already active:

Susan confirmed she's already referred at least one additional person beyond the Andrew/Luisa connection: "I've already referred another person... I don't know if they will reach out or not." This means her referral instinct is working without prompting. She hears someone with a tech career problem and thinks of O.J. automatically. The referral pipeline from Susan is passive but real.

The alternative she was choosing between:

Before thinking of O.J. for the laptop, Susan's plan was Best Buy or asking friends for local repair recommendations. The "light bulb" moment was remembering O.J. has a business. This confirms that for non-target-audience referral sources, the biggest barrier isn't trust or price, it's simply remembering you exist in a professional capacity. The fact that she said "this little light bulb went off in my head and I think, oh, I know Olivia" means the business wasn't top of mind until she actively problem-solved. Visibility matters even with people who already know and trust you.

Pricing signal:

Susan validated $325/hr as "a good price" for career counseling but noted her own context as a public sector worker would have given her pause (not enough to say no, but enough to think twice). This is a weaker pricing signal than Kirk ($200 no flinch) or Mickey ($225-250 anchor) because Susan isn't the target buyer and her reference frame is public sector compensation. The useful takeaway is that even someone outside the target market sees the rate as reasonable for the value.

The "I'm just so surprised" moment (from after the recording):

Susan's post-session comment, "I'm just so surprised we were even able to get the old one to start and it didn't seem to trouble you at all. I sat with it for 2 hours before and it would never go as far as it did with you," is the most revealing signal of the day. She experienced the core value proposition live: someone with deep technical instincts making a frustrating problem feel easy. This is the same pattern Kirk described (trying everything alone first, then O.J. solves it quickly) but experienced by a non-engineer. It translates across audiences.

Cross-Interview Pattern Updates

"Self-starter" language (new signal):

Susan used the phrase "very good self-starter" and described O.J. as someone you could "give a project and she would just take off with it." This is the first discovery conversation where initiative and independence were called out as defining traits. Previous interviews emphasized collaboration (Kirk, Geetha), directness (Kirk, Ethan), and thoroughness (Mickey).

The "didn't mind saying she didn't know" signal:

Susan specifically noted that O.J. "didn't mind saying she didn't know something and would go find out and find the right person to ask." This is an intellectual honesty signal that maps to the anti-gatekeeping value Ethan flagged. It's also a trust builder: admitting gaps makes the expertise more credible.

Intake process validation:

The close question ("anything I should be doing differently?") organically turned into Susan asking O.J. to walk through her client intake process. After hearing it, Susan's response was "I think it sounds pretty good." More importantly, the conversation revealed that Susan and O.J. share the same diagnostic instinct: restating the problem in simpler terms until both parties confirm they're talking about the same thing. Susan recognized this pattern from her own experience teaching. This is worth noting because it means the intake process feels natural and trustworthy to people outside the engineering world too.

Marketing feedback:

When asked about marketing, Susan essentially reflected O.J.'s own advice back: "you got to get out there." O.J. confirmed that in-person networking and tech events have been more effective than LinkedIn for client acquisition, and that LinkedIn engagement is a secondary pipeline. Susan validated the proactive outreach approach of messaging people who engage on posts.

Testimonial Outcome

Susan combined both drafted options on the spot, adding "good communication skills" as her own contribution. She chose to merge the personal experience angle (Option A) with the referral credibility angle (Option B), creating a testimonial that covers both use cases: someone who has experienced O.J.'s work directly and someone who refers others to her. Same-day turnaround, finalized in person. This validates the in-person handoff strategy for testimonial collection.

Actionable Takeaways

Visibility with warm contacts: Susan had to actively remember O.J. has a business. A periodic touchpoint (even just sharing a LinkedIn post or texting an article) with warm referral sources keeps the "light bulb" closer to the surface.
The career positioning framing lands with referral sources: Susan didn't describe O.J. as a technical mentor or infrastructure consultant. She described her as someone who helps people market themselves in the current job environment. This is the language a non-technical referral source uses, and it works for routing people toward the Focused Hour.
Susan has already referred someone else. Follow up to see if that person reached out, and if not, whether Susan can make a warm introduction instead of a passive referral.
Public sector pricing sensitivity is real but not a blocker. If the business ever expands toward government or education sector engineers, a lower-commitment entry point (like Fresh Squeeze at $275) would be the right lead-in.
The in-person testimonial handoff is the fastest path to finalized quotes. Replicate this whenever possible with people you're seeing face to face.

Audio Transcript:

Please do. All right, we're gonna do the discovery conversation with Susan. So, uh, 1st question. So, we're getting your laptop sorted out. How are things going? What are you getting into these days? Computer wise? Whatever you feel like saying. Whatever I feel like saying. I am a full, I'm very busy going to the county library system. It has multiple tracks from yoga, Tai Chi, exercise to books, to crafts, to social islers. I could be busy every hour of the day, 7 days a week, going to the library, doing different things. Nice. The other thing I do is I'm a board member of Flamingo Con, which is a tabletop gaming group. We have, we're on our 11th year of... gaming conventions, and this August, we're having our 1st 2 date convention in West Palm Beach at a hotel. Nice. Okay, um, so tell me about, uh, when we work together at Palm Beach State. Well, we worked together at Palm Beach State College, um, I was the lead for the payroll personnel system. And I know I worked with you on some of our jobs, but I think you also worked with a student quite a bit. Yes? Yeah. Okay. And, um, we often put in new systems once a year, twice a year. I forgot, no. Yeah, it's been like forever. Well, I think for a while it was twice a year and then it went down to once a year or vice versa. Anyway. But that was a project of so several weeks of installing news systems from the consortium, the consortium with a group of 8 community colleges that got together to form a software. Consortium for Y2K. We built our software from scratch, and then we kept it going by having, uh, forming a company, which kept us up to date with innovation and changes, and we installed and made changes every year. And as they recall, Olivia was very good. She was a very good self starter. And the fact that you'd give her a project, and she would take just take off with it. And was good at dealing with people, and... didn't have any problems either. If she knew something, it was great, but she also, if she didn't know something, she didn't mind saying you didn't know something and you would go find out and find the right person to ask. And then you work on some web stuff? I know there's some more cut stuff I didn't work on that you worked on. I think where we're working on. I did not do it, but you were working, as I recall, on some of building some of the web pages. Yeah, the college earlier. For the Panther Net. Panther Web. Yeah, Panther Web part of it. which I did not have part of at all. You did that. Yeah, I was working like with Rocco when he came on board and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, on the Panther. That I recall him. Yeah. Cool. So, um, so now kind of the more into the experience stuff, more current, so it's not so hard to remember. Um, so before you brought your laptop to me, what were you gonna do about it? Like, were you gonna go take it somewhere? Google it? I would have gone to Best Buy or something to have it looked at because It's just... Well, I'd also ask for some friends like, where do you take your computer or some other people who have locally that have computers that have people that work on it? And then, uh, and before, once before I had issues with my laptop, my laptop is old, and since I worked on it during, at from home, during Y2K, for the college, it had a lot of college software loaded on it, which really made it really difficult and slow. I had one time taking it to Best Buy and they worked on it, clearing some of that up. But like I said, I asked friends, where are you, you know, what are your some people? And then this little light bulb went off in my head and I think, oh, I know Olivia. I will ask Olivia with her business and I would be a good starting point to get things straightened out. Great. Um, so when I was working on your laptops, uh, did you feel like I understood what was going on or was it more like, um, I trust you, just fix it. I totally under feel like you understand what's going on better than I do. with some of the PCs and when they get bogged down or when they're not working. Great. Great. So, and then I totally trust you. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And you can say anything you want in these questions. You don't have to like, um, this is all just informing my business and stuff like that. Yeah. Um, so. What's your recording? Uh, So you sent your, uh, friend Andrews, contact my way for that web project. What made you think of me for that? Um, you're the, the, you're the person I would just, the only person and the person I think of most often for those kind of jobs, I mean, I know that you have your business, and we had discussed it not too long prior to that. And, um, I just thought that you would be helpful, be able to help her out. Great. So, if someone you know, like a friend's kid or a neighbor said, uh, they were a software engineer and they felt stuck in their career. Would you think of me and what would you tell them? Oh, I would definitely think of you, and I would tell them, don't ask me. Don't ask me. Don't ask me. As a retired programmer who really is a mainframe programmer, I constantly tell people I I cannot fix your PC. It is not my wheelhouse. I can probably know, I'm probably as comfortable as you are and can do the minor things. But when things start bogging down. I'm really not going to be the person to tell. But yeah, if someone was, we passed our repeat, they... So it's like, I guess what I'm trying to figure out from this question is, um, Like, how would you describe me to them? What words would you use basically? Tell me, I'm sorry, just tell me the question. Yeah, sure. If someone you know, like a friend's kid or neighbor said they were a software engineer and felt stuck in their career, oh, yeah. would you tell them? Well, as I told, uh, I've already referred another person that, I don't know, they will, if they will reach out or not, that I have this friend who has a business of helping people in the, uh, current position job wise, you know, how the market is, right, current market and how they can help them. market themselves to the current environment and what are some of the tricks to get noticed. By employers. Great. Awesome. Um, so question six. When you think about what I'm good at, what comes to mind first, tech stuff, people stuff, something else? I don't know, I think you're equally good at the tech stuff and the people's stuff. It's hard to say, for me, too, uh, break the 2 apart, because you know your technical stuff very well, but you're also very easy to talk to and very personable. So I, they're kind of equal in my 50-50, 50-50, yeah, sounds good. Um, So, yeah, we're almost there on the 95. We'll pause it and then switch over. I just couldn't see it from the same Gulf. Um, So, question seven. So my services right now are, Oh, hmm. It like blanked out. It just went to sleep. Let's pause this.

All right, so we're gonna resume the discovery conversation with Susan. So we're on question seven. So my services right now are 325 an hour for engineers who want to work through career or technical problems with someone who's been there. Just a gut reaction, does that number feel right to you for what I bring to the table? I would say so. It's a little hard for me to tell because I don't know what the market will bear, as they say. But I would think for counseling on a job, yes. That is a good price. Fair. All right, if you're, if you were still working and you hit a wall on something, like infrastructure stuff, career stuff, dealing with a difficult team, would you have paid for an hour with someone like me? Uh, what would what would it have been worth it to you back then? Like what price point? Oh, it's hard for me to say. Let me think. Yeah, take your time. It would have been worth it for me. It's a little hard to say because I worked in the public sector and was not, was probably paid a lower scale than someone in the private sector. I would say if I was more in the private sector, it would probably definitely be worth that scale, but being the private, being the public sector, and making less money than normal in my field, it probably would made me think twice, but not, not enough for not doing it at all. Great. Um, all right, so now we have 2 questions about referrals. Okay. So besides Andrew, do you know anyone else right now who's working in tech that seems frustrated or stuck? I'm not asking you to sell me. Just curious if you hear that kind of thing in your circles. Only one other person, and I did already refer you, refer them to you, whether they come. But... I hear on a, I mean, my circles have changed since I am now retired. So I don't hear it as much, but I do know a few people who are in the technical field still. So then, uh, the 2nd referral question is, what about on the business side? anyone you know run a small business or a team that's trying to figure out AI tools or cloud stuff that doesn't know where to start? Not at this time. And then, uh, the testimony we were talking about. I got a couple drafts, if you want to check them out. Sure, let me look at that. Let me bring it up real quick. Susan? Oh, this one's moving faster, then. Perfect. Okay. There we got. Do you want me to make it bigger or anything? Where am I reading? Option A and B. Okay. I like them both. Do you want to blend or...? I would blend it. Put them together, or...? Yeah, I would blend it 'cause, um... How do you want a word? Uh.. And the occasion skills and patients to actually explain what you're doing. Mm. Well, the first one is more like talking about... One is, the 1st one is, um, Sorry. The 1st one was really talking about my own experiences, I think, because it ends with, if you're trying to, when I need help with my own tech issues, yeah. Okay. And then I would put, I would take this last sentence. and put it at the bottom of that. Okay, cool. because that would put them both together, I think. Yeah, I can do that. Don't you think when you read that together and just put that last sentence? Let me do it real quick. And then... perfect. I really appreciate this. Thank you. No problem. Um, I really appreciate your help. And hanging out with you. and hanging out. Because that's the best part. It's fun. We haven't done in a while. We're way, way overdue. It's true. All right, so I put it together. Um... I'll put she instead of OJ again. She. All right, cool. Is it really good? Yeah, I worked alongside. Would you, for years, watch your solve problems? Something to her team. She has a rare combination of deep techno skills and patients that actually explain what she's doing and why. When I needed help with my own tech issues, she was the only person I wanted to call. She is person I sent people to when they need real help, not generic advice. She knows infrastructure, software engineering, inside and out, and she treats every person like their problem matters. I've known her for years, and her standard hasn't dropped once. If you're an engineer trying to level up, you're in good hands. Yeah, I, they merged because one is more like personal and one is more like what, referring, you know, what I'm saying? I like them together. Simone Neal. Yeah, when I drafted them, I was kind of like, all right, let me take 2 aspects and see which ones you wanted. point of view, but I think together it's a full picture. Thank you so much. So then the last question, um, is, uh, Uh, what is it? Or anything you think I should be doing differently, differently or something you think I'm missing? You've known me a long time, so I trust your read on this. I don't know that I know the business enough to give you advice. Okay. I mean, you could just... I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, a little bit, I hear you. I'm so kind of out of the loop now. But you know stuff like when you're when you're getting service from someone, there are certain things that you expect, you know? Maybe, yeah. Okay, so if it wasn't me, explain to me your process, if you have somebody don't know, you know, you have a, whatever you want to call it. You get a cold call from Cold Call. Someone's like, hey, I have a problem. Hey, I have a problem. What do you what do you do? Give me that explanation, then maybe I can give, because right now I can't, you know, Sure. Typically, if I'm if there's someone cold, I'll introduce myself. I'll ask them, you know, to tell me a little bit about themselves. You know, we'll do trade introductions. I'll say, you know, I would like to hear your problem. And then they'll tell me their problem and then we'll, I'll ask clarifying questions about their problem, to try to really dig down because typically the 1st problem that they give you isn't the real problem. There's usually something deeper. Right. Um, so we kind of, we spend a good 15 minutes, like, really exploring that problem statement to really nail down what is the core root cause of their problem? And I think you, you probably do what I do is, okay, I'll, even when I was doing adjunct teaching, I'll state something and if there's a few that don't quite get it. I reword it again, you know, and you reword it, I'm not really dumbing it down, but you simplify that maybe the terms are what you're saying. And you get until you can get across what you need to communicate, and then that they tell you something, you have to dig down, like, are they really saying what they, are they really using the right words and they're really saying what they think they're saying or something? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. It could be, it could be a miscommunication of like they're thinking a word in their head. It means one thing. But in reality, it's communicating another thing. Right. Yeah. So you have to, I always go down to the lowest dominator and then figure, okay, we're both talking about the same. Exactly. Find that common ground. So that's like pretty much the majority of the call. And then once we get that down, I identify whether it's something that I can actually help with, or if it's someone I know I can refer them to, right away, I can do that right away. And if not, I if I can't help them and I don't know someone who can help them, I usually say, well, I can't help you. I don't know anyone right now that can help you, but, you know, let me let me reach out to my network and see if there's someone that I can find for you. I like that. And then I'll get back to you by the end of the week. And that's typically how I end those kind of conversations. if it's something that I can actually help with, I tell them, you know, I have these services. I think this one is a great fit for this exact problem. Here's the process on how to book it. Um, if you want to move forward. Um, you know, we can do that. Or if it's a custom project, like a website, I'll be like, we can put together. I could put together a quote for you and send it your way. Let me get your contact info, blah, blah, blah. Um, and then I typically, uh, if it's, uh, if it's, like, a mentoring kind of session, I'll ask some, like, personal questions, like, you know, tell me a little bit more about yourself. Like, what are your hobbies, what are your interests? And then a lot of times they'll ask me that too. So then we get a little moment where we can kind of know each other a little bit more because we're going to be working together for multiple weeks for a long time. Especially when you're mentoring, it's a little more of a closer relationship than if you're just doing a business deal. Yes, let's say. Yeah. Yeah. You can't really, for a business deal, you're not really like, hey, what, what's your hobbies? They were like, what are you doing? But if it's like, we're, I'm, I'm basically acting as a senior and you're a junior and I'm like training you. Um, and it's over a 2 week period, um, or more. Um, then we go into the, like, let's, let's, learn about each other as human beings, because we're gonna be working really close together. You can get in more insight, since you're mentoring them, you need more personal insights, so you can, yeah, see what they're got. Gotcha. Yeah. And that's that's pretty much the intake. Okay. Anything I can improve? I think it sounds pretty good. Now marketing, how are you marketing? How are you getting the word out about your job, your, your, um, services is what I'm trying to say. The most successful way is by going to tech events and networking events. Being there in person and just doing stuff or volunteering for stuff. Yeah. Um, and then getting my name out that way and basically doing my pitch every once in a while has worked a lot better than LinkedIn or online marketing. It hasn't really worked very well, but I need to basically, well, it's your own advice. You know, you said, you know, you got to like get out there and that's what you were telling people the same thing. Same thing. Yeah. So I think once I build more clients just by getting out there, word of mouth will go, and then the online will kick in more. But I'm still doing online outreach too, through LinkedIn. I'm posting every day, a really nice, like I spend a good amount of time doing these drafts of these things and I do insights into the industry and I put stuff out there and things that I learn about my clients and all that stuff. And then people that engage on my post, I reach out to them proactively. Like if they just like it. Um, I'll look at their profile and I'll send them a message directly and I'll say, hey, I saw you like my post. What do you think was cool or whatever? And then we have a cool conversation. Some of those convert into clients. Okay. Well, that's good. I like that approach. Yeah. You get more detail. Well what did you like about it? And then you have a conversation and then figure out there's something, they could figure out. There's something you can really help them with. Yeah. So it's kind of cool. But I don't really like the whole salesy, you know, it's not really my favorite thing. Okay, think this one's done. Cool. Oh, did you wanna copy the rest of it? Oh, yeah, I keep forgetting anymore, more space. Silly Susan. Silly Susan. It'd be interesting to see how fast this copy's over.

20260321 Discovery Conversation 05 Susan Burgard